Belgian government fell

I thought Greece was in this because they lied about financial numbers. That's the story that reached my ears.

Boomlala wrote:I thought Greece was in this because they lied about financial numbers. That's the story that reached my ears.

ye tahts true >.>
Thats how they joined the eurozone in 2002. The financial stats were cooked so that they look acceptable and the rest countries that whould establish eurozone pretend they didnt see shit
Also tahts the case ith Italy and some other countries >.>

I heard cynicists inside the Greek Gov wanted Greece to join the Euro for the simple reason that they lost monetary and exchange rate policy = cant take the easy option and just devalue the currency or default on the drachma = Greek government and people finally have to face up to austerity measures

Off-topic, but I'm seeing a constant increase in Tory support the last days. What's up with the Cleggmania?

Greece was never really ready to take euro. They rushed it. And how is someone else guilty for Greek 270 billion EUR debt with 5 billion annual interest. And why was greek government hiding the public deficit of 13.6 percent??? I love Greece more than anyone here (except jim) but ur government really sux big time.

I agree to most of ur points.
- Greece was never ready to take euro the rest members knew it but they played dumb >.> Personally i think it would never be ready.
- Greek goverments for the last 30-40 years r shit (i always say that and always will). There's only 2 political parties that have this country for so many years now.. Its just pathetic. There is not even a party that u can actually put a vote on for all tehse years. Personally i have never given a vote to these 2 but most likely i give it to ecologists (knowing that they have no chance to get elected) so that whichever party gets elected will consider that they have to be more carelful about enviromental issues etc. But there is not even one i can land my vote on. In the same situaation as me r many ppl i know. Also a majority gives votes to one of the big parties cuz they odnt want the other one..
But ofc the basic supporters of each partyy r the ones that think that this party is the best (to my eyes they r like the football fans and we have a lot of them 0o) and also another huge amount of votes is been taken by ppl that after giving their vote they will have an "inside person" that will help them find a place in the public services (get paid with good money most of the times while they have many advantages). Having some1 in the goverment counts so much in Greece. Blame the "idiotic/selfish" brains most Greeks have in matters like that... Its one of the the bad things of "greek culture" that was formed after wars.
-So, beacuase of the lovely goverments i mentioned above, and because of their competition each time we have elections one goveremnt says there r money so vote us and u will be fine and other stupid stuff, then obe of the two i get elected and realises it cant offer all the things its promised. Actually they cant even offer the basics so they take loans and they pretend everything is fine (thats how the 13,6% came up) and that all the setbacks and all the bad things that hapens r dew to the goverment be4 them... SO its the same mess for al these years. And although there might be ppl that can actually do something, the damage is so big that it will take decades to get it fixed (if this is even possible)... And ofc the ppl dont know what to do.. Cuz they have to pay for all the shit. Taxes r getting increased with crazy rates and salaries stay the same or even worse they r getting lower.. And above that there r so many pppl that live with loans so u can imagine what happens now with the current economical situation.
Anyay i odnt want to go any further at this post cuz it will be tiring...

ture...it is tiring. Doesn't matter...i'll still visit greek islands...best vacations there.

daryo wrote:ture...it is tiring. Doesn't matter...i'll still visit greek islands...best vacations there.

tahts the only product Greece "exports" ;P

are you going to be alright colin?

daryo wrote:Every Slovenian must pay 168 Eur for this Greek mess. What a shit!!! You know how much UK or Denmark citizents must pay??? NOTHING!!!! They don't have to save euro...it's not their currency.

It's great rite?

Boomlala wrote:Off-topic, but I'm seeing a constant increase in Tory support the last days. What's up with the Cleggmania?

Surprised you've kept track of the UK elections, seeing's as Belgium is not doing to great.

I think all the party's are doing a piss poor job of convincing people that they are the right people for the job, that's why it's so undecided.
I mean all of the three parties basically have a third of the votes each, just goes to show that no one is making a big impression.

I'm also starting to think that Tory's aren't going to be best for the job.
I guess we will find out torromow anyway.

People are used to seeing Leterme hand over his resignation to the King. 5th time in 3 years now, I think. Everybody's just pissed off in general that they have to vote AGAIN, and that we're losing face in the EU once more.

wtf I just saw in the newspaper NVA is most popular in polls. I hate those fuckers, they don't even want to self-accept their fascism.

I'd like to see a Walloon prime minister in charge for a change. It would put us in a much more comfortable situation, since Walloon politicians can't point fingers anymore.

And we really don't need a party like the N-VA in our government right now. It would only increase tensions by having a nationalistic party up front.

yeh and they're fascists!

I wish I could vote for a Walloon party... Damn our system sucks

That blonde dude got treated unfairly. Muslims need to stop being butthurt about criticism on their belief.

WILDERSSSSSSSSS
xD

it's not that bad that the goverment fell, i don't care anymore it worse in Greece.

My political views have changed a lot over the past few weeks.

The three traditional parties (VLD, CD&V, Sp.a) are all worthless. I was a classic VLD supporter, but the party is morally bankrupt. Empty promises and shallow realizations. I am aligned with their position, but one needs to look beyond the simple premise of political stance. And VLD simply is not worth my vote. The CD&V are pussies. They have no results to show for themselves, and are afraid of the Walloon parties, who are much stronger in their unified vision. They are the party of the status quo, and that's not what I want. Their 'new deal policy' is laughable. And the Sp.a are left-wingers (it's bad enough that Di Rupo from the PS has a shot at becoming prime minister), and their alignment is a polar opposite to me.

Lijst Dedecker is a cirque. A former model/TV show host (Tien om te Zien) tops the list. No thank you, I'd like for this country not to become the first idiocracy in the world. They rely on PR and PR only, no content whatsoever. I align with their position (even moreso than with the VLD), but the party itself is disappointing.

Vlaams Belang is way too extremist and radical to ever be in a government. They're fantastic as opposition though, and they can keep any government awake with their biting criticisms from time to time. Excellent, in the spirit of democracy. But keep them from ruling the country per se, they'd do more bad than good.

PVDA+? Commies. Enough said.

Groen! ? In these times, environmentalism is NOT our first priority. Let's fix the country before fixing the world.

And then we got the N-VA. Although I stated before that such a party could be trouble, my views upon them have radically changed in the past weeks. Many of their ideas are excellent (I think a confederalist state could be the solution), and the air of bad publicity around them (created by the traditional parties) is simply untrue. They are not pure separatists and separatism is not their goal. What they want is a healthy Flanders (the nationalistic element of their alignment). If that's possible inside Belgium (according to them, confederalist), they will keep Belgium. But if the relationship with Wallonia becomes too straining on our condition, separation will be inevitable and is in fact beneficial. I think this makes perfect sense. Although I'm not a nationalist, I care more about a healthy Flanders than a healthy Wallonia, simply because I live in the former. Self-interest > common good. And if Wallonia is falling apart, then it's better we disband them than be taken with them.

The Walloon politicians do not care about Flanders. Not one bit. They are interested in usurping our goods and services while leaving us broke and pressured. The traditional parties do not dare to fight this. But the N-VA is more confrontational, like it ought to be. Flanders' interests need to be defended. Right now the minority (Wallonia) is getting everything done and blocking everything the majority wants to do (BHV), whilst relying on that majority for social support. Inconceivable, but that's what the traditional parties did for us. And it needs to stop. The N-VA is the only serious party who does not go for the compromising consensus, which has shown to have failed time and time again. Simply because the Walloon politicians, like I said, only care about Wallonia (yet hypocritically, they call themselves the unionists, easy enough if you get a privileged spot in that Union).

So I have changed from VLD to N-VA. And apparently, I'm not alone, they're currently the biggest party.

And I strongly fear that the PS will get a massive majority in Wallonia, because that means we might have a socialist prime minister. And then we are truly fucked.

yay we got an other one brainwashed by the NVA.

'The Walloon politicians do not care about Flanders' how do you say "kinderachtige veralgemening" in english? Seriously that's so black and white.

'They are not pure separatists and separatism is not their goal.' The thought alone is despicable.

'separation will be inevitable and is in fact beneficial' I've said it before and I'll say it again: Hitler made Germany rich, but to what cost?
If Flanders ever goes solo, I'ma leave. It would the most fascistic nation since the third reich. Can you imagine yourself saying: "I live in Flanders. It used to be twice as big but we threw half of it out because it wasn't economically strong enough."
We need to support Wallonia. Yes we need to reform our political system, but no we don't need to split. A unitary parliament would be great. And a president too. And restrictions on social security so it will not be abused by minorties. All these things are important. And everyone wants them (yes even the mean walloon politicians)
But threathen to split from Wallonia? that is as absurd as it irrational.


'I care more about a healthy Flanders than a healthy Wallonia, simply because I live in the former.' Irrational, hypocrite, fascistic, ... Just some things that come to my mind.



Myself I do not want to vote, but as that would mean I would vote for the biggest party (which will be fascists-NVA), I will waste my vote with PVDA+ (or one of the other smal parties). Simply because it doesn't matter.

no you wont vote on pvda+ because it doesn't matter but because you are communist.

So when DO the Walloon politicians care about Flanders? Flemish politicians have always taken care of their economically weak brethren. We have always made sure there has been support and that the Walloon minorities on Flemish ground get respected. In return, we get nothing. We give a finger, they want an arm. When we ask for our FLEMISH villages to be assigned to a FLEMISH voting district, they complain and whine and threaten the very fabric of our cooperation with the alarm bell procedure, even though it's AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION. Why? Walloon votes from French minorities in Flemish villages. Pure unconstitutional politics. And despite our efforts to provide in Walloon support, they keep pointing fingers and complain every single time how 'separatist' Flemish politicians are, how 'unsupportive' we are and how we 'abuse' our majority. Fuck Walloon politicians. (Not Walloon people, I have no single problem with those)

Separatism is a means to reach their goal: a healthy Flanders. And unlike the traditional parties, who uncompromisingly reject the option (out of fear for their Walloon counterparts making a ruckus), N-VA keeps it in mind. Not to threaten Wallonia, but to say: Flanders won't keep sucking your cock. Walloon politicians need to respect our position and our constitution. N-VA will make sure of that, and the traditional parties don't.

Godwin's Law. We aren't deporting Walloons to camps just yet, so keep your dramatic rhetoric for yourself. And it wouldn't be too different from the Velvet Divorce in Czechoslovakia. Their economy took a small dip (due to bureaucratic adjustments and costs), but has steadily risen since then, with good growth marges. Seeing how our economy is well developed (better than Czechoslovakia, at least), it would not cause any economical malaise and in fact do both sides good. Flanders doesn't have their burden anymore (and due to our strong education and infrastructure, chances for our own Schelde Miracle [lulz Korea]), and Wallonia, with brand new independence and without the political dominance of a right-wing Flanders (which they don't like) may try to become an 'economical tiger' and develop themselves in a better suited pace. Very 'absurd' and 'irrational' indeed.

Typical socialist response. How is it irrational? Self-interest suits all of us better. Hypocrite? I never claimed the opposite. Fascist? Riiiiiight. Sorry for wanting to live in a developed, economically strong and liberal country, rather than a shithole in Africa. "Irrational, hypocrite, fascist" quothe the communist.

Then why not vote for CD&V? They pretty much do nothing anyway.

Boomlala wrote:Empty promises and shallow realizations.

Yea, that's what they all offer..

"Flemish politicians have always taken care of their economically weak brethren."
mining

"We give a finger, they want an arm."
yes ofcourse; because once you go over an imaginairy line, people's way of thinking suddenly changes. People here and in Wallonia are exactly the same mate. Probably the same as anywhere else in the world. Everyone always thinks that sort of stuff about the other.

"they [Wallonian politicians] keep pointing fingers and complain every single time how 'separatist' Flemish politicians are"
This is still a veralgemening (you didn't answer my question by the way)

"Fuck Walloon politicians. (Not Walloon people, I have no single problem with those)" gotto admit it's a bit contradictory there. Who do you think ellects those 'fuck politicians' ?

"Flanders won't keep sucking your cock. Walloon politicians need to respect our position and our constitution. N-VA will make sure of that, and the traditional parties don't."
look above

"We aren't deporting Walloons to camps just yet,"
It's the same principle. You know it started with harmless yellow stars ...

"it would not cause any economical malaise and in fact do both sides good."
This is the weirdest part, and I really don't get it. How would Wallonia's economic developement rise if separated if they cause our economy harm? How would there be a problem if they could handle economy? The problem is: There is a much bigger percentage of Walloon people that live of welfare benifits than Flemish people. That causes their and our economy harm. Yes, but because of the social situations of poverty and not because they're moraly diffrent. Situation makes a group, the way the group lives. They are no different inside. It always happens, you know that too. They have acces to the money, so they'll use it. Obviously it pisses you off. I remember how VB suddely had this poster that Wallonia costs Flemish families a car a year. But that is not the point. The point is that there should be reformations; not in the markings in our soil, but in our welfare benifits. It doesn't have to come to a split and there are a lot of risks involved with it. You can't be sure Wallonia would start to grow economically. You can't even be sure Flanders wouldn't fall.

'Self-interest suits all of us better.'
You can bring world peace with 1 nation, but what would it cost? I ask you: where does self-interest stop and where does fascism begin?

"Sorry for wanting to live in a developed, economically strong and liberal country, rather than a shithole in Africa."
Belgium splits; Flanders becomes a developed, economically strong and liberal country and Wallonia becomes a shitier hole in Africa (likely).
But of course 'self interest' allows that. (It's a little close to fascism here I think)

"Then why not vote for CD&V? They pretty much do nothing anyway."
Who the fuck puts 'christen' in their name and not be fucked up in the head?

Childish generalization or something. And it's not a generalization because it's true. I've never seen a Walloon politician (seriously) say "Flanders wishes need to be respected as well". Many Flemish politicians have (too much, methinks).

I distinguish people who elect politicians from those politicians. Many people voted Nazism, that doesn't mean they were Nazists. More like disgruntled Germans, who felt humiliated by the Versailles treaty, strongly believed in the Dolchstosslegende, and saw a powerful (yet somewhat anti-semite, which wasn't all too uncommon) charismatic figure in Hitler who would turn the country around. If Hitler would have died days before he invaded Poland, he might have been honored as one of the finest German chancellors ever, maybe even nearing the legendary Bismarck. The point is: I do not judge someone on who they vote for. The politician's errors are the politician's and the politician's only. People are not responsible for fuck ups in government.

The same way Slovakia became the Tatra Tiger. The economic situation is very different from Flanders (as you said), and thus needs different measures to develop wealth than Flanders would. "Different disease, different cure" (De Wever) This would become possible in a confederalist state, or in a secession (both endorsed by the N-VA). Wallonia would be given the freedom to completely control their economic development,, without needing to get approval from a federal level. And I'm not angered because the 'money pump' takes money away (I'm pro-investment), but because the 'money pump' is blind. Money gets squandered and Wallonia doesn't get better. If the investment policies were actually better (and the politicians competent), I would have no problem with it. And the Walloon politicians thankless attitude doesn't help one bit either. And Flanders wouldn't fall because we got the basics covered. Extremely expansive infrastructure, lots of international trading, excellent education, a reasonably competent government (very different from federal level), industrious work force (and excellent social care for those workers [vakbond + ziektekas etc]), GDP 23% above EU average, 2nd largest EU port (Antwerpen)... Flanders has everything it needs to survive, even excel.

Fascism begins when you start to erode the opposition from your spectrum, and therefore violate the basic rules of freedom. The concept of self-interest states that if everyone is driven by what is best for them, everyone becomes better for it. Keeping our workers happy by excellent health care benefits is good because it makes them more productive, keeps them happy and non-revolting (strikes are inevitable though, in any given situation), increases productivity, creates good publicity (I wanna work there too)... all of which ends up being beneficial for me. The capitalist sentiment, and it has worked well so far, upstaging both the communist model (which imploded), the socialist model (which evaporated into social democracy) and the mercantilist model (which got pretty much abandoned overnight in the late 18th century).

Wallonia is already a developed country (or part of a country). And they could get even better if their fate wasn't so tied to Flanders.

Well, at least the communist party isn't that stupid.